“I was...carted off to a room where [they] kept me sleep deprived for six straight days as they conducted one of their infamous ego-stripping sessions...The ‘police’ have my statement.”

Postings by “Earnest One” and others on the Skull/Bones blog, Oct. 7-9, 2007

[“Earnest One” is a long-time participant in discussions on both The LaRouche Challenge (Skull/Bones) blog and the Factnet message board. A close relative of his is a member of the LaRouche cult, and Earnest One himself has interacted with the cult extensively. The postings below were part of a debate with a LaRouche supporter who uses the online name “revenire” (or informally, “Rev”). Earnest One, annoyed with revenire’s lawyer-style defense of LaRouche, posts a fictional scenario of how a cult might drive a recruit to suicide. Then, after repeated baiting by revenire, Earnest One reveals that this story is based on his own traumatic personal experience with the LaRouchians in Wiesbaden three decades ago. Finally, he sums up his thinking on the Duggan case and on the LaRouche organization’s intimidation of ex-members and critics. I have only included the portions of the responses by revenire and others that are relevant to the flow of Earnest One’s thoughts or to understanding why he was justified in becoming so annoyed at revenire. The full interchange between Earnest One, revenire and the other discussants can be read here.--DK]

revenire, October 7th, 2007 at 7:40 pm (replying to user name “Justin”):

You come up with these crazy conspiracy theories about Duggan’s death, Kronberg’s death, etc. and expect anyone to believe it other than fools.

Operation Mop Up? Enlighten me as to what you think happened because all you did, unless you were involved, was read some scribblings about it.[FN 1]

You’re on the outside looking in and I understand it is difficult for you to make heads or tails of what’s what.

It doesn’t matter.

Like I said, at the beginning, this site is fun but a serious look at Lyndon and his actions it isn’t.

I am all ears and open to changing my mind but so far all I see is tired old slanders.

Take care...

Earnest One, October 8th, 2007 at 1:14 pm:

You are walking across a bridge. Midway, about 20 “friendly” people meet you, surround you. Well, surround you on only three sides. The other side is the railing, which you are intermittently pressed against.

But they engage you in wonderful, interesting conversation. Politics, culture, math, physics. Creative mentation is even mentioned!

At first it is interesting — even fun; but then you grow tired. You ask them to step aside, so that you can continue across the bridge. You have had enough. You are polite. You are always polite.

Nobody moves, or some move and others take their place, or they all move but it is so haphazard and disorganized that you do not know whether or not YOU have been able to make progress across the bridge. Perhaps you have moved backwards. One thing remains constant: people are all around you, save for the railing — the only things “protecting” you from falling into the river below.

At first it was all very friendly. But after a while, you’ve had enough. And you become “slightly” irritable. The surrounding crowd notices this irritation. And they become less friendly.

A “negative” feedback loop develops and the wonderful “spirit” of this remarkable encounter deteriorates. Note, too, that time is passing. How much time? Who knows? But it is dark and you are tired, hungry, and weary.

After a while, the mood becomes decidedly unpleasant, confrontational. They begin to attack you for your beliefs (political, spiritual, and religious). You defend yourself, you scream out for help. But they have surrounded you. And this goes on and on and on.

You start to lose it. They notice this and respond by increasing the pressure. You want out. “Let me out of here!” you demand. “I have had enough.” Then someone yells out from the back of the crowd, “Jump — jump if you want out. Jumping is the ONLY way out.”

But you don’t want to jump. That would be suicidal. But then they threaten you, threaten your family. It becomes a nightmare. You ask for help, you appeal to their humanity, but nobody comes to your aid.

You cannot see any passing cars. You are tired, frightened, scared. Days go by (or so it seems) and your mind becomes clouded, you cannot think straight. You are confused. You want to go home. You want some sleep. Nobody has come to rescue you, despite your pleas for help.

Your vision deteriorates, your hearing is affected. You become paranoid, or so it seems. Are the threats real, or are they simply joking with you?

The crowd now chants in unison: “Jump! Jump! Jump! — It’s your only way out.”

Indeed, in your confused state, you now think it makes some sense. “I’ll jump over the railing to escape — unless I jump, I will die. I can’t take it any more.” You see no other way out. You are not thinking clearly, and you are scared of these people. They are threatening you and your family.

So you jump. And you die. The fall is simply too much.

Legal question:

Did you commit suicide? Or did they “murder” you by surrounding you, threatening you and coaxing you to jump?

I claim that it is murder, even though they did not push you, physically.

At the start of your walk across the bridge, you were happy, had no intention of jumping or committing suicide.

You died in a “state of terror.”[FN 2]

Earnest One, October 8th, 2007 at 7:11 pm:

True, in my fictional “story” one can find plenty of analogies with current events.

I wanted, however, to pose a LEGAL question and point out a possible quandry.

RE: Jeremiah Duggan. Perhaps the laws in Germany do not permit consideration of various “external” factors. If true, this appear to be a loophole in their system of justice.

Rachel Holmes, October 8th, 2007 at 8:30 pm:

My take on “revenire” is that he(she) is a current LaRouche member, with a whole lotta time on his/her hands/paws.

Seems obsessed with Duggan, just like the [cult's] “legal” staff (Bruce Director’s new full-time job — messing around with the Duggan case).

revenire, October 9th, 2007 at 6:11 am:

The jumping story isn’t even third-rate SciFi Channel fare…

People surrounded Duggan and caused him to jump in front of automobiles? Or are we talking about Kronberg or both? It looks like grasping at straws to me. People don’t surround someone on a bridge — it sounds like that movie where the children are from outer space and take over the town — and cause them to jump by harassing them. In the movie the kids had mind powers, like Professor X in the comic books. Do the LaRouchies have mind powers? Telepathy? Maybe they can bend spoons…[FN 3]

What did the German police report state? What did the British authorities say about it? If any of you actually cared about Duggan you’d read get a copy of the German police report and post it on the web. None of you have. You’ve used the death of Duggan to attack LaRouche.

I’d like to see the German police report. All of it. That would be a start toward justice. Post it someone and then post the British authorities’ response to it.

Someone surely has read it and rejected it. The storyteller above wants to know German law — I am certain he/she can find out German law on the world wide web.

I’ve never lost a child but have lost a father and the doctors botched it and maybe LaRouche really controlled the doctors so I would sign my life away to become a full-time Labor Committee member huh? I blame LaRouche for my father’s death. That’s it. My dad used to go to meetings but he didn’t agree with everything LaRouche they had the docs botch the job! My God! I am so glad I found this site.

Or maybe...I dated a Jewish woman once and maybe LaRouche found out and that is why my father is dead!

Justice for Rev’s Dad!

Obsessed with Duggan? No. I just want to hear from you folks — the ones obsessed — what you actually think happened. I’ve heard one story about his being surrounded by people and psychologically tortured until he cracked and then jumped in front of automobiles (Duggan) or (Kronberg) off a bridge.

People that don’t like LaRouche can just walk away. They do it everyday don’t they? The very fact you are here posting proves it. They don’t jump off bridges or in front of cars. They just get up, say “this is garbage,” and move on. Anyone remotely familiar with a LaRouche “meeting” knows that and certainly anyone who was a full-time member who “escaped” knows it too and is lying when they say otherwise. People that quit LaRouche’s “cult” do so for a variety of reasons but sometimes they just are cowards aren’t they? Then they get bitter — very bitter — for wasting decades of their life and end up on the web posting about suicides caused by the Wizard of Oz and then they ramble on about “justice.” You know? Sometimes they’re just cowards...

You just don’t have any comeback for anything I write so you grasp at air and come up empty. These are just words. Are they that potent? It takes 3-4 of you to even answer one person? And, you can’t even answer me?

One guy, “earnest” (good name), wants to find “loopholes” in German law.

Someone else guesses I am near Leesburg, near where Kronberg jumped. Yeah I am on the very bridge — it is a WiFi hotspot! I travel in my car from town to town picking up new IPs to throw you off my trail!

You guys sound like you’ve lost your minds. Who is obsessing again?

Earnest One, October 9th, 2007 at 8:50 am:

Hey, Revenire:

There obviously IS a loophole in German law. There was absolutely zero consideration of prior events. It is like my story, above, except nobody sees the crowd — they only see the guy jump.

You write:

“Obsessed with Duggan? No. I just want to hear from you folks — the ones obsessed — what you actually think happened.”

I am hardly obsessed, but I have had personal, first-hand experience with LaRouche goons, in Wiesbaden and in Leesberg. Here, “Earnest One” is [a] quite appropriate [user name].

I think they terrorized Duggan, using methods honed from decades of practice. Sleep deprivation is a well-known tactic — for all cults, not simply LaRouche. It is boilerplate, cookie-cutter stuff.

The running away seems entirely rational. What sane person wouldn’t run away from those creeps? But perhaps his sanity/judgment was compromised. Perhaps they threatened him, or his family.

I say that there are problems, even assuming that the official story is true.

An investigation is needed, truly, to determine what happened before all the final events. Again, this is assuming that the official story is correct.

Duggan’s death was NOT an isolated incident. This is simply a fact.

revenire, October 9th, 2007 at 10:10 am:

Hi Earnest...

I am a fair guy and want to know the truth. I have opinions just like you and my opinion is Duggan’s mother is being used for political reasons. The links at the “Justice” [Justice for Jeremiah] sight [sic] kind of prove that to me.

“I think they terrorized Duggan, using methods honed from decades of practice. Sleep deprivation is a well-known tactic — for all cults, not simply LaRouche. It is boilerplate, cookie-cutter stuff.”

How long was Duggan at a meeting? He didn’t sleep for how long? That’s your argument? He just was terrorized into jumping in front of autos? I don’t buy it because I know plenty of people who simple up and left a LaRouche meeting — this is from coast to coast and this is young and old and rich and poor. These people are still alive. My mother left more than one and she’s Jewish and still alive. She’s in poor health but thinks LaRouche was right but who the heck is she? Right? You can call me a liar but I am telling the truth here. I know full-time members that left and are still breathing. It wasn’t hard for them to leave. It was easy. On the other hand I see a couple of bitter members that gave decades to a cause and then decided LaRouche was a sham and got very bitter.[FN 4] Are you one of those? I can understand someone spending 20-30 years full-time with LaRouche and then chocking it in and becoming this bitter, obsessed web-addict.

“The running away seems entirely rational. What sane person wouldn’t run away from those creeps? But perhaps his sanity/judgement was compromised. Perhaps they threatened him, or his family.”

He was running away from what? You see, you don’t have any facts but you have lots of conspiracy theories here. “Perhaps they threatened him”? Oh Geez-us...even you should know better: LaRouche, already painted as a small-time Hitler, is going to threaten a Jewish young man? Then have him killed? Yeah, right. Stupid theory Earnest...doesn’t even make sense. Duggan was under no pressure to remain anyplace.

You ever been to a meeting in Wiesbaden? People come and go as they please. Members come and go as they please. New ones join, old ones leave — kind of like a job. If there were all these ex-members who were threatened where are the charges? This is where it all falls apart. You have bitter ex-members that are whining about their lives and how they wasted time with LaRouche. Oh well, maybe they should move on and see if they can do something with their lives rather than whine about their choices. Or is it they didn’t have a choice? I have been reading LaRouche’s stuff for about 30 years and have seen the old Campaigners[FN 5] and own a lot of them. I know a bit more about it than most of the folks posting here.

“Duggan’s death was NOT an isolated incident. This is simply a fact.”

No? Who else? Kronberg? Connect the dots for me please. If you”re going to suggest Kronberg jumped because LaRouche said he was some sort of useless Baby Boomer, save it. I am a Boomer and I haven’t jumped. Ha.[FN 6]

Politics is dirty business, as the last presidential campaign showed with the attacks on Kerry etc. To use a dead young man to attack LaRouche is really sick. To suggest LaRouche drove Kronberg to jump is just as bad. I might be naive but LaRouche’s political enemies are really desperate.

Earnest One, October 9th, 2007 at 11:06 am:


You write:

“Duggan was under no pressure to remain anyplace.”

Is this simply your “speculation,” or were you with him? How would you know, one way or another?

Note, too, that if he “was under no pressure to remain anyplace,” then why did they take his passport?

revenire, October 9th, 2007 at 11:44 am:

Is that in the police report?[FN 7]

revenire, October 9th, 2007 at 12:08 pm:

You’re peddling conspiracy theories about Duggan and Kronberg and preaching to a very small choir and you know it.

What is this place? Outside of the laughs I get, what else have we got going here?

Earnest One, October 9th, 2007 at 12:57 pm:

Same old story.

Discourse devolves into insults and adolescent-level jokes.

Let’s get serious. Please post that Police Report.

Till then, I’d rather believe my lying eyes than LaRouche et al.

For example: In the late 1970s, I attended one of the yearly conferences in Wiesbaden. Tremendous pressure was applied on me to fork over my U.S. passport.

But please, let’s see what that Police Report says.

revenire, October 9th, 2007 at 2:10 pm:

Cut it out — you were going to hand over your passport? Why? Did Helga [Helga Zepp-LaRouche, Lyndon's wife] surround you with her German dogs and pour wine all over you or something? Seriously, what kind of pressure? Did they tell you that your mother was the cause of your impotence? I would really like to know what would cause a young man in the 1970s to hand over a passport. I think you’re full of it — just straight up lying and you are also using dead men (Duggan and Kronberg) to attack LaRouche. You won’t get far with me.

Earnest One, October 9th, 2007 at 2:39 pm:

Okay web-based A_hole.

Here is “some” pressure:

A large LaRouche goon smashes into me on the street while I was walking with members of a major “delegation” the night before one of the yearly Wiesbaden conferences, circa late 1970s.

The big-time LaRouche goon issues a threat:

“Either you join up, or we cut your blank blank’s legs off.”

Here “blank blank” is a close family member, not present. Then, the real target of this “operation” (another close family member, already halfway indoctrinated) turns to me and says, “They have a way of pulling you in.”

I was immediately carted off to a room where a team of seven LaRouche goons kept me sleep deprived for six straight days as they conducted one of their infamous ego-stripping sessions. Sadly, for them, I am one tough cookie.

The “police” have my statement.

Now, do you have an earnest response? Or will you wilt in the face of a firsthand, truthful report? Or worse, will you lie through your teeth?

Run like the wind, kids. These LaRouchie guys/gals are seriously wacked, and it has nothing to do with the extreme political conditions now extant in the USA/world.

revenire, October 9th, 2007 at 8:02 pm:


You’re soooo concerned with justice or is it revenge? Were you some full-time LaRouchenik that couldn’t cut it? Is that it? You dropped out and now are one of the Bitter Boys of LaRouche Land? That’s life in the Big City — I thought you said you were tough. They must have tore you a new one for you to still be whining about it...

You should get some other dropout and bring their bitterness and hatred here and tell me how you’re concerned about “justice” when you all know Duggan did exactly what the German authorities ruled. Why even question it? Because you want to “get” LaRouche. Admit it because it is really transparent...

Duggan’s mother is being played like a fiddle. Let’s see one shred of evidence of foul play. Just one.

Is it a joke to me? Is what a joke? Duggan’s death? No one’s death is a joke but the mother being used by LaRouche’s political opponents and the dropouts that have nothing better to do but warn off people that can just walk away from the dreaded “cult” are a cruel joke. The links at the “Justice” [Justice for Jeremiah] site are proof enough of the bender they sent the mother on. You talk about manipulation — the mother is the one being manipulated. That’s sick. A sick joke.

Your fairy tale of being held captive is ridiculous.[FN 8]

Earnest One, October 9th, 2007 at 10:51 pm:

Interested readers (if extant) should note that the LaRouche organization has a long and documented history of running dirty tricks against progressive politicians. Moreover, they are well known for viciously attacking, harassing, and hounding ex-members who speak out about conditions inside the organization, especially the cruel and sadistic treatment of both members and non-members.

This obviously puts quite a damper on people who have something negative to say! Who wants to risk getting roughed up, or worse? The self-proclaimed Rev, above, ignores these key facts and thinks, naively, that one can simply speak out openly without fear of retribution. But perhaps he is not naïve, and is simply trying to collect info for his masters.

LaRouche is delusional and maintains a vast enemies list. This has practical advantages, as his young believers then go along with the idea that he is an important person. If he wasn’t important, then he would be ignored (or so goes the thinking).

It is well documented that LaRouche was paid by right-wing fascists to perform dirty trick operations on Democrats and other progressive forces, such as Labor leaders. During the Reagan administration, he was a paid agent of the CIA,[FN 9] as he ran operations abroad “posing” as a progressive, while actually spying on like-minded thinkers; he collected information that was later sold to right-wing elements inside our own government. Some of this came out during his trials.

In terms of attacking critics and enemies, a few examples are sufficient to put a huge chill on others. This is how it works. Look at what BushCo has done to people who criticize his policies, even people who were once loyal members of his staff.

Many, many people know about LaRouche’s terror tactics but have kept quiet, for a variety of reasons. Some fears are well founded, some not. Certainly there are many ex-members who simply cannot risk saying anything; it takes very little effort for a few of LaRouche’s goons to create havoc. But again, this is well documented.

A large section of LaRouche’s so-called security staff is devoted to harassing people, and keeping them from speaking out. This includes reporters around the world who write articles.

The self-proclaimed Rev is pretty far-gone; one simply needs to compare his attitudes to the known facts. Note, however, that he may be right that Duggan’s mother is being used by political opponents of LaRouche. My reply: So what! LaRouche created this situation, if only by the sheer stupidity of his response to the tragedy.

The Wiesbaden people who had close contact with Jeremiah were quickly sent out of the country and orders were issued for nobody to speak about his death, even in private, amongst themselves. The LaRouchies certainly behaved like guilty people — guilty of something, if not outright murder.

But LaRouche has probably gained from it all because of the rise in publicity. Note, too, that it reinforces the perception — inside his org — that he is important. Why else would he be under attack from powerful forces, British forces! This is madness, truly, as he has essentially no influence on anything, other than the people trapped inside his bizarre fantasy world, performing slave labor for a dollar or so an hour.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of LaRouche’s so-called organization. A close relative was captured by them long ago, leading to a 30-year nightmare for my family and me. This accounts for my interest. And, as noted above, I had an extreme encounter with them. An encounter where they threatened the life of a close family member and then tortured me[FN 10] for about a week. Assuming that what I say is true, and knowing the LaRouche organization's “zeal” for dealing with outside “threats,” it is a non-trivial problem to speak out about this matter without risking additional problems.

Notes by D. King:

[1] The full story of Operation Mop Up — LaRouche’s 1973 campaign of violence against leftists — is told in Chapter 3 of Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism (read it here).

[2] The London inquest (November 2003) into Jeremiah Duggan’s death resulted in a finding by the coroner, Dr. William Dolman, that Jeremiah had not committed suicide, and that he had “earlier been in a state of terror.”

[3] "Revenire" seems to have totally failed to understand that "Earnest One" was not describing the specific events in the Duggan case but rather how, in general, a cult might generate feelings of fear and despair in a resistant recruit. In Earnest One’s story, the bridge and the crowd are symbols — not representations of an actual bridge or an actual crowd.

[4] Reality check: Over two-thirds of the people who joined or allied themselves with the LaRouche movement at one time or another over the last 40 years ended up severing all ties with the group as a result of disillusionment and/or disgust. We are talking (re the United States alone) about hundreds of people who were cadre and thousands who were on the periphery — not just a “couple” of bitter individuals. More than 100 of such “dropouts” (as revenire scornfully labels them) have written articles or resignation statements, signed collective resignation letters, sued for lost money, filed fraud complaints with state attorneys general from Alaska to Florida, testified against LaRouche and his deceptive fund raisers in court, spoken confidentially or openly with journalists, or posted on the web their personal warnings and complaints about LaRouche (for numerous examples, read here).

[5] Reference is to The Campaigner, a former theoretical magazine of LaRouche’s National Caucus of Labor Committees published monthly (or sometimes every two months) during the 1970s and 1980s. It included in its pages some of the movement’s most notorious anti-Semitic screeds.

[6] If the LaRouche follower “revenire” is not a resident of the Leesburg, Va. area where the cult’s national offices and LaRouche’s home are located (and he assures his co-discussants on Skull/Bones that he is not), he almost certainly has not been a target of the kind of nonstop one-on-one verbal and emotional abuse from LaRouche that Kronberg suffered for over a decade. Furthermore, the statement in the April 11, 2007, briefing that the organization’s Boomers might as well commit suicide was linked to an explicit charge that the “print shop [Kronberg's business] was the worst” (meaning, the worst offender against LaRouche’s aims and desires). Kronberg would instantly have recognized this phrase as the signal for all-out “war” against himself, his family and his business; indeed, he had earlier predicted to his wife that LaRouche was preparing a major campaign of vilification and scapegoating against them. There is nothing in the memo to suggest that a similar personal threat against non-Leesburg resident revenire (or any other specific individual) was contained in the memo. Furthermore, the fact that revenire has not himself committed suicide is irrelevant to the Kronberg case on logical grounds. The LaRouchians, however, have never shown much respect for logic, which they regard as part of an evil Aristotelian plot.

[7] Note the implication: if it’s not in the police report, it’s not worth considering. But the point of the Justice for Jeremiah campaign is that the police rushed to a suicide judgment and thus never investigated basic questions such as why Jeremiah’s passport was not on his body when the police arrived at the death scene but was instead in the possession of the Schiller Institute; and why the passport had his blood on it — blood that had to have been deposited BEFORE his purported death on the motorway.

[8] “Ridiculous”? Read here a 1974 account from the New York Times of how several LaRouchians held a young woman named Alicia Weitzman captive in an apartment in upper Manhattan (she escaped by throwing a note out the window urging passers-by to call the police). Ironically, Ms. Weitzman at the time was 22 years old — the same age as Jeremiah when he died.

[9] A CIA “agent” is a civil servant, directly employed by the CIA, whose job entails certain covert activities in the interest of national security. Earnest One should have used the term “asset” for the likes of LaRouche. But in what sense was LaRouche ever really a CIA asset? The amount of information on this subject is full of gaps. Most ex-LaRouchians who have spoken about life in the cult were never entrusted with details on its private spookery — which involved not only gathering intelligence to be offered to the CIA and other spy agencies but also the encouragement (probably not, given the timing, at the CIA's behest) of right-wing death squads in several countries — and thus have been unable to provide much insight. The relatively few ex-LaRouchians who do have in-depth knowledge of the cult's covert activities because of their own involvement, have yet to come forward and reveal the full story. Here’s what I’m prepared to say based on the information currently at my disposal:

First, much of the intelligence gathering and garbage in/garbage out analysis the LaRouchians performed was at the behest of con men who claimed to be working for the CIA, but probably weren’t (LaRouche paid them, rather than the other way around). Second, some of the work was done at the behest of (or to curry favor with) retired intelligence officers, such as James Angleton, or individuals with murky ongoing relationships to the intelligence community (alleged contract agents, people operating CIA business proprietaries, etc.). It could be argued (but has never been proven) that some of the people in the latter category served as cutouts between LaRouche and elements in the official intelligence community.

But leaving the above categories aside, it is undeniable that the LaRouche organization offered, and the CIA (especially when Admiral Inman was DDI) eagerly accepted, information gathered by correspondents of LaRouche’s EIR News Service in Latin America and elsewhere. Thus one could say that some staffers of LaRouche’s private intelligence-gathering news service functioned as CIA assets (while also working for the security services of Germany, Argentina and several other countries). Anyone who doubts this should just look at what Herbert Quinde has been doing the last few years.

As to LaRouche himself, since he was the founder and unofficial proprietor of EIRNS, I suppose you could say he also was a CIA asset of sorts. Was he a “paid” asset? I have long suspected, but cannot prove, that he received start-up money for his intelligence operation indirectly from the CIA at the end of the Ford Administration. But in subsequent years the CIA didn’t really need to give him money (although they may have done so), because what he really wanted was something else — evidence to feed his delusion that he was an important player in national security circles. So government people would meet with his followers who had useful information to impart, but would also grant LaRouche and his wife courtesy meetings (thus “paying” them in the currency of ego gratification).

As to actual direct payments from a government, it’s sufficient for the nonce to know that LaRouche received cash “donations” from cocaine dictator Manuel Noriega’s G-2 in the mid-1980s by way of a Panamanian military attaché in Washington (read here).

[10] Individuals held captive and subjected to sleep deprivation and intensive psychological and emotional abuse in the form of LaRouchian ego-stripping (all the while thinking their families would be physically harmed if they tried to escape), have every right to describe their experience as “torture” — even in the absence of thumbscrews.